Our interview with Dr. Theodore R. Johnson
Dear Friends,
I am really pleased to share this interview with Dr. Theodore R. Johnson. Ted is a friend, and someone whose work I’ve followed for a long time, particularly in his role as a Senior Fellow at the Brennan Center for Justice. Now, he’s the author of When the Stars Begin to Fall: Overcoming Racism and Renewing the Promise of America.
I was already excited about this book, but after reading Ted’s recent interview with Daniel Stid (which I recommend you read as well, as my interview picks up where Daniel’s left off), I wanted to do my best to make sure we could interview Ted for the newsletter. Ted graciously agreed to talk with us.
I hope you enjoy our conversation, and that you pick up Ted’s vital new book.
Yours,
Michael & Melissa
Michael: In some of the recent discourse around racism and politics, there’s a stream that is cynical about politics while it is also insistent that the political system enact some very specific reforms and policies. Your book, though, seems to take almost the opposite approach in that you advance a view of politics and democratic engagement as ennobling and dignifying in a way that isn’t necessarily dependent on a ten-point policy agenda. Do I have that right? Is there something about civic involvement, in your view, which makes it valuable even outside of a particular short-term advocacy goal?
Ted: That's right. While I recognize that better public policy and systemic reforms are necessary to create a stronger and more participatory democracy, solidarity among the people is required if we're going to be successful in mitigating the threats of racism. One of the primary reasons for the rise in anti-democratic behaviors in the United States today is that Americans don't really know one another. Our neighborhoods, schools, churches, social, and social media circles are highly homogenous. So, when policy challenges arise and leaders emerge who seek to lay blame for the issue on groups, our lack of connection to members in those groups make us much more susceptible to divisive appeals, negative caricatures, and the sense of threat. Unless we address this - the sense that democratic strangers are undermining our democracy - then policy reforms will be insufficient in resolving the challenges our nation has long faced. As such, the book advocates for civic unity and social cohesion as the best means to hold the government accountable to operate in a pro-democracy fashion.
Michael: Ah! “Democratic strangers” is such a salient, incisive phrase. It brings to mind Howard Thurman’s description of hatred developing from “contact without fellowship.” There are significant hurdles to familiarizing ourselves with our fellow citizens, and helping others do the same, but one proposal you and I share is for a significant new national service initiative. Can you talk a bit more about how national service might contribute to the advancement of racial justice. Are there any other promising pathways to addressing this issue of “othering” which is at the heart of the political sectarianism of today?
Ted: The problem that a program of national service can help us address is increasing exposure to our fellow citizens! Presently, Americans are still quite segregated by race and class. The neighborhoods we live in, our social circles, the schools our kids go to, and even our social media interactions are still extremely homogenous. Something like 3 in 4 white Americans and 2 in 3 black Americans don't have a single person of another race in their social networks. If we don't know one another, it becomes too easy to believe the caricatures and stereotypes about one another - things that unprincipled leaders exploit to keep up divided and to keep their hold on power.
As a retired military officer, I saw firsthand the benefits to be gained by getting to know and working alongside Americans from all walks of life. You soon find how much you share in common and how much easier it is to disagree without demonizing. National service will scale up this exposure and connection to democratic strangers in ways that will facilitate civic friendships. We will become much more resilient to divisive appeals when we know people from different groups because we will have life experiences that refute the attempts at "othering" that some will inevitably undertake. National service isn't a panacea for all that plagues our country, but I think it indispensable to the larger project of American democracy.
Michael: You’ve written that we “can still choose solidarity” in the face of racial injustice, even as so much in our politics promotes racial hatred and indifference. Is solidarity necessary for right political action, or is right political action a prerequisite for true solidarity? Do you think faith commitments can source that solidarity, or are you convinced solidarity will have to be grounded elsewhere?
Ted: It is definitely the former - solidarity is necessary for right political action. The current brand of American electoral politics rewards divisive appeals, certainly for much of congressional and presidential contests. While principled leadership is necessary to model what proper citizenship should look like, political action will not precipitate solidarity. The kind of solidarity we need is centered on a cause of justice or morality - things that realpolitik is a bit allergic to. So, Americans will need to find national solidarity in order compel political action that leads to a more responsive government and incentivizes leadership styles that prioritize unitive appeals instead of divisive ones.
Faith commitments are absolutely essential to solidarity and the larger American project. These commitments are not attached to traditional faith institutions, like churches, synagogues, mosques, etc. But they can build off the attributes of such institutions to replicate the conditions by which people who believe in the same things can find bonds of affection across difference. National solidarity requires a civil religion - a sort of civic liturgy attached to a belief in the American ideals of equality and liberty. That is, we must have faith in the American project and the values that undergird it; it's the only foothold durable enough to keep us in solidarity when selfish and unprincipled actors seek to divide us for economic and political gain. Our faith commitments to the American ideals are what source the solidarity necessary to mitigate the effects of racism.